Curse

borkbork · Feb 28, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

...I am still called a noob by PvP players out side of my guild who are R6 or above, however 1v1 and I defeat them hands down, why?

This is a team game. I seriously hope you were trying to be sarcastic.

TsunamiZ · Feb 28, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

another way to get more players to get into pvp is to offer more pvp armor and weapon skins to choose from. some of the current ones offered for pvp characters are either boring or hideous.

jayce · Feb 28, 2007, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Ok, do an experiment. Go out, get a PUG in a normal PVE area. See how many *clearly* bad skills there are. The last time I did it, I was watching Precision Shot, Dwarven Battle Stance, Blood Bond to name three being used. Until the majority of the PVE community starts rejecting bad skills and running proven, efficient builds I'm going to hold to my view. Next time I'm on I'll go find a PUG and see what they are using... Maybe I'll see Counterattack this time!

dagnabit, i knew i should have puchased me a PVE unlock pack from the gwonline store.

Jayce Of Underworld

Kook~NBK~ · Feb 28, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

Gotta agree with this. There is way too many selfish players that think the game should revolve around them and what they do (PvE or PvP).

As for Gaile Gray's earlier post, I can see why so many PvE people took the tone of the article personally. And it shouldn't be surprizing that people did. The article was all about don't do this, don't do that, and some of the scenarios he gave as bad examples of PvP builds (Fire Nuking Monk, for Pete's sake!!!) are not acceptable builds in PvE, either!! (And what right-minded Monk is going to use rebirth while ANY battle is raging?) Thank God that there aren't many who try that crap in PvE.

Want to do something to help PvE players make the transition to PvP? Give PvEers some ideas on learning how to PvP (Wait! I already said that earlier!), not a list of skills that suck in PvP (several of them suck in PvE, as well)

B Ephekt · Feb 28, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Tell that to the reigning champs. Or to the euros who won gold before that. Or to any of the other dozens of spike guilds that have held top 20, earned silver capes, and held their own in the playoffs. Or to any tombs player, where spiking is clearly the dominant strategy atm. Its only in guru forum wars that spiking doesn't work -- on guru every spike is infusable, disruptable, or splittable. But in the real world, it is alive and well and works in just about every game mode, every meta, and against just about every opponent.

You do have a point, but you’re also discrediting your previous statements. Simply being able to count from 3 did not get those guilds into the top 20; strategy, knowledge of skills, the current meta and player skill did. Saying that you only need to count form 3 to be good at pvp is such trash it’s not even a valid argument.

Quote:

PvPers like to pretend it takes much more skill to PvP; this is a joke. If you can follow basic instructions from a caller and run a bar you are given, you are as good of a player as at least half of the PvP players.

A build may only have one target or tactic caller, but ever person in the team needs to understand game mechanics and be skilled at their role. Simply following orders might get you by at the lowest levels of play, but you won’t ever be a good player without skill and understanding.

Quote:

If you are merely average in PvE, you can expect a lot of frustrating attempts to beat hard missions -- because they are always the same difficulty. In PvP, even if you are merely average you will win a lot of the time just because so many people are so bad -- and sometimes you will get lucky and win just for showing up.

Pvp forces you into becoming a better player… or being a permanent scrub. In pve bad players can keep sucking and still manage to finish the game. At any decent level of pvp you’re playing against the other team’s tactics and skill; you're playing against live human players who can out think you, outplay you and capitalize on your mistakes. In pve you’re fighting inherently dumb monster AI which is predictable and exploitable, and can't do anything but throw random damage at you.

I’m not saying that pve takes no skill; it most certainly does. But the skill level required to excel in pve is much lower than the level required to excel (not just get by) in pvp. This holds true not only for Guild Wars but for any game that offers single player and multiplayer modes.

Sea Edge · Feb 28, 2007, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Until the majority of the PVE community starts rejecting bad skills and running proven, efficient builds I'm going to hold to my view. Next time I'm on I'll go find a PUG and see what they are using... Maybe I'll see Counterattack this time!

That is already happened, but you won't meet them, because they hero/hench everything.

Tea Girl · Feb 28, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Edge

That is already happened, but you won't meet them, because they hero/hench everything.

More like you will be the one who hero/hech everything in PVE when you don't feel like dealing with a E/R with savageshot or a R/E with firestorm.....

tomcruisejr · Feb 28, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Why do you blame the people using mending and all that crappy skills? You should blame A.Net for not removing them from game.

No crappy skills, no crappy players.

.defekt · Feb 28, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Edge

That is already happened, but you won't meet them, because they hero/hench everything.

Wrong. The other weekend, about the ONLY time I've voluntarily done PvE (thunderhead keep) I ran with a PuG and a guildie.

Their dervish used Watchful Spirit and some other dumb enchant.
Their ele was an E/N with minions and grenths balance as their elite.

If THESE are the types of players that are near the END of prophecies, I would hate to see the PuG's before it.

I agree with Scout. Not sure why some skills are still actually in the game. Flamebait for those who use them, probably.

Nith47 · Feb 28, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

What do you think? What got you interested in PvP (or why aren't you interested)? Did you struggle with these issues and if so, how did you overcome them?

Guild Wars is the only "MMO like" game where i haven't really enjoyed the PvP. I'm a casual player and Guild Wars does not provide an enjoyable PvP experience for the casual player; Fort Aspenwood being a lukewarm exception.

I do RA from time-to-time, but never for long. While its entertaining for a little while the rewards for succeeding are small and the attitudes of many players are grating at best and more often offensive.

I like that to succeed in PvP in GWs requires skill, organization, and team work, however, I dislike the commitments that are required. I don't wanna sit around for 30 to 60 minutes organizing a party, get everyone on vent/ts, or ever feel obligated to play because it took so damn long just to get a group going.

I honestly feel the same way about PvE Elite missions. I love that they're a challenge, but I hate that most of that challenge is just finding the time to do 'em and managing other players.

Shmanka · Feb 28, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I’m not saying that pve takes no skill; it most certainly does. But the skill level required to excel in pve is much lower than the level required to excel (not just get by) in pvp. This holds true not only for Guild Wars but for any game that offers single player and multiplayer modes.

Post 185 wins the thread! We can all now go home to our mothers!

@Gaile: Thank you for replying, but in all honesty I would have rather you stayed silent. I predict alot of people paying 15$ a month for what you just said.

cthulhu reborn · Feb 28, 2007, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

And nope, we're not going to ask the community to approve our content before we publish--that's simply ridiculous.

If someone threatens to quit over the publication of such a benign opinion article--or if someone actually does quit--I wish them well. There are a million thoughts behind that message, but in the interests of closure, I offer you zero offensiveness, condescension, or hostility.

I do not like the PvP game play and I love the PvE and I didn't think much of this particular article...but so what?

In response to your comments I can only say one thing: you are quite right.

Gaile Gray · Feb 28, 2007, 08:44 AM // 08:44

So, someone says that this will be an issue "until it is satisfactorily addressed" or something of that nature.

How?

Let's review:

Someone wrote an article.
Our Editing Team reviewed it, edited it, and we posted it.
Some readers didn't like it.
I personally found parts of the article less than warming, but that's ok, because I recognize it's one person's opinion, and I don't demand that everything I read be lockstep with my own opinions -- in fact, I like seeing a diverse representation of many different opinions.
I took the complaints to the Editing Team; they reviewed the document with heightened sensitivity to possible offensiveness, and they determined that, because it's an op/ed piece, and because it's not written with intention to offend, they stand behind approving it.
I respect their opinion, and I commend their professionalism in both the willingness to give the article a second consideration and in the thoroughness and thoughtfulness of the review.
I suggested that we should clearly call out the opinion-based nature of State of the Game articles, and see to the addition of that note to every such article.
I continue to communicate to you, here, what we've done, and give the best and most straightforward explanations of the events that have transpired.

And here we now are. Some people saying we're being corporate, some implying that we're dishonest, some suggesting there is more that we are obliged to do. Really? I'd say we're being pretty upright about this, and that we're taking a pretty direct and active approach. So if you need more, tell me expressly what that would be. I see the demands for something, but I don't know what. Is it a demand to recognize that we have two communities in PvE and PvP, and to admit that they are often populated with different people? Done! Is the request that we state that the communities are often a loggerheads, or may fail to see eye-to-eye? Yes, that's true. Is it a request for more information about playing PvP, so that this article does not stand alone? Let me introduce you to the nearly two-dozen PvP Primer articles! Is it a request that we censor all controversial articles, that we fire the writer in question, that we upbraid the editors, that we only write articles on "safe" topics, or... ? You tell me, because I really think this issue has been addressed and we're well beyond issue and into needless drama and pointless, circular discussion.

Skuld · Feb 28, 2007, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

When will the pain and laughter end?

So this explains why there are so many Mending Whammos and Monks in RA, and TA?

Another prime example of a PvP mindset in regards to PvE players. And we wonder why are polarized.

Yup not taking rebirth into DoA is a bad idea acceding to your post. See how long you survive without it there.

Again, this is comparing competent pvers to the dregs of RA, and vica-verca. Look at the scale, not everything is equal on a rung.

Redfeather1975 · Feb 28, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So, someone says that this will be an issue "until it is satisfactorily addressed" or something of that nature.

How?

Let's review:

Someone wrote an article.
Our Editing Team reviewed it, edited it, and we posted it.
Some readers didn't like it.
I personally found parts of the article less than warming, but that's ok, because I recognize it's one person's opinion, and I don't demand that everything I read be lockstep with my own opinions -- in fact, I like seeing a diverse representation of many different opinions.
I took the complaints to the Editing Team; they reviewed the document with heightened sensitivity to possible offensiveness, and they determined that, because it's an op/ed piece, and because it's not written with intention to offend, they stand behind approving it.
I respect their opinion, and I commend their professionalism in both the willingness to give the article a second consideration and in the thoroughness and thoughtfulness of the review.
I suggested that we should clearly call out the opinion-based nature of State of the Game articles, and see to the addition of that note to every such article.
I continue to communicate to you, here, what we've done, and give the best and most straightforward explanations of the events that have transpired.

And here we now are. Some people saying we're being corporate, some implying that we're dishonest, some suggesting there is more that we are obliged to do. Really? I'd say we're being pretty upright about this, and that we're taking a pretty direct and active approach. So if you need more, tell me expressly what that would be. I see the demands for something, but I don't know what. Is it a demand to recognize that we have two communities in PvE and PvP, and to admit that they are often populated with different people? Done! Is the request that we state that the communities are often a loggerheads, or may fail to see eye-to-eye? Yes, that's true. Is it a request for more information about playing PvP, so that this article does not stand alone? Let me introduce you to the nearly two-dozen PvP Primer articles! Is it a request that we censor all controversial articles, that we fire the writer in question, that we upbraid the editors, that we only write articles on "safe" topics, or... ? You tell me, because I really think this issue has been addressed and we're well beyond issue and into needless drama and pointless, circular discussion.

Gaile, the audience may be to the point where any little game change, or article can be said to favor one mode of play, PVE or PVP, over another. I can't help but feel that it seems that way from how skill updates look at least. The feeling is like a powder keg, and the article isn't the problem, but a spark under the powder keg.

If both communities were to be satisfied, one mode cannot be shown favoritism over another and despite what a little article has fueled here, it stems from something that is largely shown ingame through one mode negatively impacting the other. Part of the solution would be completely separating the two modes, because they really are separate experiences. This would involve ridding Divine Favor's influence on PVE areas, and incorporating separate skill effect descriptions for when the skill is used in PVE or PVP.

There are probably other aspects to the game that fuel the fires of PVE or PVP prejudice and the belief that the dev staff is prodding players into playing one mode over the other, but I am very tired and have to sleep.

Edit: I need to check my spelling more closely before hitting 'post'.

strcpy · Feb 28, 2007, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I’m not saying that pve takes no skill; it most certainly does. But the skill level required to excel in pve is much lower than the level required to excel (not just get by) in pvp. This holds true not only for Guild Wars but for any game that offers single player and multiplayer modes.

I mostly agree with what you wrote, except for one thing. The skill level to excel in either PvP or PvE is quite high - though note the word "excel". In PvE one can be drug through every aspect of the game, have multiple FoW armors, and countless max titles. That isn't "excelling" in PvE - that is getting drug through the game by people who do.

I'm not one that excels at the game - I tend to either drag the group on or am the weak link (hence I hench/hero everything - I *hate* being either case and they are only ad good/bad as I am). But that doesn't mean I do not know greatness when I see it.

As to Gaile's explanation: this particular article is fairly bad. Saying "It is their opinion" doesn't really do much when it is an *official* article. It wasn't just a post on a website run by you - one amongst many. But one that you guys selected for publication, that is this person got a refereed publication through in an online publication. If nearly every article you guys got submitted made it through with some editing then that would be one thing, but in this case you selected it from how many? If just a few then next time do what other refereed publications do - tell what your requested topic is, format/size, and a deadline. It's not that hard nor is it new, other groups have been doing it for years. I'm willing to bet you will get a number of submissions.

Normally I side with Anet - I've been there done that (I worked in a research institute for about four years developing software and understand that we do not have access to internal documentation). But in this case it doesn't hold water for how this type of thing normally happens. Someone needs to have a better vetting process for articles - once they become official publications from Anet (and those are few and far between) it tends to say someone out there in Anet-land agrees with it. It's not a like a forum post where there is just a few minutes spent thinking about it.

dgb · Feb 28, 2007, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Face it Gaile, this whole article has blown up in your face, PVErs resent it because you/the author have lumped everyone together, when really he only means to comment on 95% of the PVE population. It's gone beyond avoiding damage, you're now in damage control mode and you can't fight the fires as they crop up. The small number of rational posters who aren't actively inflaming the situation generally agree with you and that probably makes you feel better, but really you should ask the developers to put a /resign into your job, because you're facing rit spike on isle of jade and your guild lord is at 25% health fighting this.

Oh yeah. Rit spike. Nerf it. Nerf it into GOREDENGINE oblivion so that we can see all the PVErs cry IMO.

isamu kurosawa · Feb 28, 2007, 09:46 AM // 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

Rebirth lets a smart carrier who sees a wipe coming, run, break aggro, and rez from a nice SAFE distance. (if it comes to that lol)

Although im strongly against the article in question, One thing in PvE that irritates me is people relying on rebirth. Its one of the first skills i get my new guild members to drop in end game PvE area's. Its much more reliable to not get into a near wipe situation. player skill over rebirth.
If you fail then try again and learn from your mistakes, then the wipes stop happening.

I don't PvP because i have no interest in it, But i still like to use efficient tactics in PvE, And rebirth is far from efficient.

My personal play style is one of the reasons the article offended me, and every member of my alliance. We are all PvEers of different levels and dedication and all had a discussion on how the article came across after reading it.

arcanemacabre · Feb 28, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

TBH, the only type of build I ever use Rebirth in is an MM. It's just not that great in any other build, honestly.

Now, in DoA, I could see a good use for it in more builds, mainly because 3 hours into a zone, it would really suck getting a wipe. All other areas, it's pretty easy to just redo it if you ever get in a party-wipe situation.

Remember, just about 99% of all the skills have their use in the right build. I mean yeah, there is that 1% that really is completely useless (Otyugh's Cry), but Rebirth is definately not in that 1%.

gone · Feb 28, 2007, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

If you fail then try again and learn from your mistakes, then the wipes stop happening.

exactly when rebirth comes in handy...I don't want to re-do an endgame elite area because the last man standing used his sig. (notice how that happens?)
rebirth lets the surviving gamer retry/rez from a distance w/o having to /resign and start all over.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

I still like to use efficient tactics in PvE, And rebirth is far from efficient.

seeing as you might have a tight guild that has active members, who listen (lol), you can prolly afford to let rebirth slide. go out adventuring with a group of nobodies, as a healer, who knows his job well, and you'll be warping/resigning to the nearest town/outpost pretty quick.